SIMONE DEL ROSARIO: IS TIKTOK THE SPY BALLOON IN YOUR PALM? AFTER SHOOTING DOWN CHINESE SURVEILLANCE IN THE SKY – THE GOVERNMENT IS SETTING ITS SIGHTS ON THE POPULAR CHINESE APP.

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY: LISTEN I WELCOME ALL EFFORTS TO BAN TIKTOK.

SIMONE DEL ROSARIO: AND THERE ARE QUITE A FEW. MORE THAN 30 STATES HAVE BANNED IT ON GOVERNMENT DEVICES. THE WHITE HOUSE GAVE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES 30 DAYS TO MAKE SURE IT’S NOT ON ANY FEDERAL SYSTEMS. POLITICIANS LIKE SENATOR JOSH HAWLEY HAVE PROPOSED BILLS TO BAN THE APP NATIONWIDE. AND THIS WEEK – AN EVEN BROADER BIPARTISAN BILL WOULD OPEN THE DOOR FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO BAN *ANY FOREIGN TECH IT DEEMS A NATIONAL SECURITY RISK.

SEN. MARK WARNER: IN TERMS OF FOREIGN TECHNOLOGY COMING INTO AMERICA WE’VE GOTTA HAVE A SYSTEMIC APPROACH TO MAKE SURE WE CAN BAN OR PROHIBIT IT WHEN NECESSARY. 

SIMONE DEL ROSARIO: CRITICS OF THE APP WARN TIKTOK’S BEIJING-BASED PARENT COMPANY BYTEDANCE IS BEHOLDEN TO THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY. 

CYBERSECURITY EXPERT MORGAN WRIGHT.

MORGAN WRIGHT: THERE IS A THING CALLED CIVIL MILITARY FUSION IN CHINA, ANYTHING THAT’S DEVELOPED INFORMATION THAT IS IN THE HANDS OF CHINESE COMPANY, THEY ARE REQUIRED TO SHARE THAT INFORMATION UPON DEMAND WITH CHINA. 

SIMONE DEL ROSARIO: FEARS RAMPED UP WITH A 2016 LAW THAT DECLARED ANY CHINESE COMPANY OR CITIZEN MUST “SUPPORT, ASSIST, AND COOPERATE” WITH CHINESE INTELLIGENCE.

BYTEDANCE TRIED TO CONVINCE U-S LAWMAKERS THERE WAS A FIREWALL BETWEEN CHINA AND U-S DATA…THAT CHINESE STAFF COULD NOT ACCESS NON-CHINESE USERS. 

BUT THAT FELL APART WHEN BYTEDANCE FIRED CHINA-BASED EMPLOYEES FOR TRACKING THE TIKTOK DATA OF U-S JOURNALISTS.

IN RESPONSE – AND DUE TO U-S GOVERNMENT PRESSURE, BYTEDANCE HAS POURED $1.5 BILLION INTO PROJECT TEXAS – TO STORE U-S USER DATA WITH AMERICAN COMPANY ORACLE.

MILTON MUELLER: THEY ARE BENDING OVER BACKWARDS, I THINK THEY’RE DOING ACTUALLY TOO MUCH. THEY’RE LITERALLY SPENDING A BILLION DOLLARS TO CREATE SOME MASSIVE DATA LOCALIZATION INITIATIVE IN WHICH THEY ESSENTIALLY ARE FORCING THEM TO USE ORACLE AS THEIR DATA STORAGE. 17:50}

SIMONE DEL ROSARIO: MILTON MUELLER IS THE DIRECTOR OF GEORGIA TECH’S INTERNET GOVERNANCE PROJECT. HE SAYS BYTEDANCE IS JUST ANOTHER TECH COMPANY TRYING TO MAKE A PROFIT – WITH PLENTY OF AMERICAN INVESTORS.

MILTON MUELLER: WE HAVE TO STOP ASSOCIATING OWNERSHIP WITH NATIONAL MILITARY CAPABILITIES. IF WE DO THAT THE WORLD STARTS, THE WHOLE GLOBAL ECONOMY STARTS GETTING DIVIDED UP INTO POLITICAL TERRITORIES.

SIMONE DEL ROSARIO: TIKTOK SURPASSED A BILLION ACTIVE USERS WORLDWIDE BACK IN 2021. IT’S ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING APPS IN HISTORY.

IN THE U-S – WHERE ABOUT 100 MILLION PEOPLE SCROLL THE APP, THE AVERAGE USER SPENDS ABOUT 90 MINUTES A DAY VIEWING VIDEOS.

WHILE MANY POLITICIANS REGULARLY DWELL ON THE DATA TIKTOK COLLECTS – CALLING IT A RISK TO NATIONAL SECURITY – MUELLER SAYS IT’S REALLY NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM.

MILTON MUELLER: I’VE ASKED THIS FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, I SAID, GIVE ME A PLAUSIBLE SCENARIO BY WHICH SOMEBODY USES TICK TOCK DATA TO UNDERMINE THE SECURITY OF THE US. I’VE NEVER GOTTEN AN ANSWER THAT QUESTION. 

SIMONE DEL ROSARIO: BUT FOR THOSE WHO SEE TIKTOK AS A THREAT – THE DATA IS JUST THE START.

SEN. MARK WARNER: THEY ARE TAKING DATA FROM AMERICANS, NOT KEEPING IT SAFE. BUT WHAT WORRIES ME MORE WITH TIKTOK IS THAT THIS COULD BE A PROPAGANDA TOOL.

MORGAN WRIGHT: IT’S NOT ABOUT WHAT THEY’RE DOING TODAY, IT’S ABOUT HOW THEY USE THIS INFORMATION, TO CREATE THE RIGHT KINDS OF ALGORITHMS TO FEED YOU THE INFORMATION THAT OVER TIME CHANGED YOUR VIEW ABOUT SOMETHING.

SIMONE DEL ROSARIO: BUT CUTTING OFF AMERICANS FROM THE CHINESE TECH – AS SOME LEGISLATION PROPOSES – IT’S A NONSTARTER AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL, ACCORDING TO GROUPS LIKE THE A-C-L-U.

THEY TOLD CONGRESS AN OUTRIGHT BAN WOULD “LIMIT AMERICANS’ POLITICAL DISCUSSION, ARTISTIC EXPRESSION, FREE EXCHANGE OF IDEAS – AND EVEN PREVENT PEOPLE FROM POSTING CUTE ANIMAL VIDEOS AND MEMES.”

AND THAT’S SOMETHING PEOPLE FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES HAVE AGREED ON.

MILTON MUELLER: I THINK A BAN ON THE APP NATIONWIDE WOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL, I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY EASY TO CHALLENGE THAT ON FIRST AMENDMENT GROUNDS. AND THAT WOULD NOT SURVIVE THE TEST. 

MORGAN WRIGHT: GOOGLE AND APPLE, IF THEY SAID, HEY, TIKTOK, YOU’RE GONE. THAT’S PROBABLY THE MORE REALISTIC, BUT I DON’T KNOW HOW PROBABLE SOLUTION IT IS TO THE THING. I DON’T THINK THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO GET TO THAT POINT WHERE THEY CAN ACTUALLY BAN IT OUTRIGHT IN THE US, AT LEAST FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE. 

SIMONE DEL ROSARIO: THERE’S NO TIMELINE YET FOR WHEN LEGISLATION MAY FACE A VOTE IN THE FULL HOUSE OR SENATE.

I’M SIMONE DEL ROSARIO IN NEW YORK IT’S JUST BUSINESS.